>> because if you think the fiscal cliff is fun, you'll love the debt ceiling. the economic havoc that is wreaked by the fiscal cliff is a very gradual thing, as you and have i discussed. going over it is a mistake. we shouldn't do it. but at least initially, if we can reverse it, it won't be so bad. if you default on the nation's debt on our treasury bills, that's not a fiscal slope. that's a cataclysmic economic event. not only are you stiffing creditors who believe they have invested in the safest debt in the universe, you're actually threatening to have to raise our interest rates through the roof in order to service our debt, which means absolutely a long-term recession. it's really quite a fatal step. >> "the wall street journal's" reporting that the white house is willing to do corporate tax reform in their new proposal. what do you think than in what do you think that might mean? >> i think it's a neat idea. the white house is actually articulated a fairly detailed corporate tax idea in a white paper that didn't get enough attention a few years ago. and